A Woman Working in a Man’s World: 10 Lessons I Learned in the U. S. Navy

USS Flint (AE-32), WESTPAC '94

I spent much of my navy career in the extreme minority—as the only woman in a helicopter squadron, as one of two women on a ship with a crew of five hundred, as one of four women in a battle group numbering seven thousand.

  

I was in a unique situation, sure, but I learned some valuable things about how to integrate into a male dominated work environment, things that have also served me well since—while working in corporate America, as a small business owner, as a parent.

  

Do I have it wired? No, I don’t presume to have this figured out. If you’re a woman stepping into a work environment that happens to be dominated by men, you can thrive with a variety of approaches. But you can hinder your progress in just as many ways. Hopefully, I can help you avoid some of those pitfalls by offering the benefit of my experiences.

So here you go, ten lessons I learned in the U. S. Navy, advice for women in a male dominated work environment.

1. Be competent. Know your job. Do your job. 

2. Be physically active. It shows in how you carry yourself. How you address a division. How you sit in a meeting. Your posture as you lecture in front of hundreds. If you feel strong physically, you’ll harbor a quiet confidence that others will sense. And it goes without saying that not only is physical activity good for your health, but it also jostles a muddy brain, allowing for clearer thinking. By the way, this doesn’t mean you need to become an ultra-marathoner. You can garden, walk, do yoga, swim. It can be anything. Just do something.

3. Be yourself. Be genuine. You can spot a fake façade a mile away. No need for the tough guy act. And don’t try to be “one of the boys.” I’ve seen this backfire far too many times. Please, just don’t.

4. You’re always on duty, even when you’re off duty. Should you let yourself go, doin’ the wild thing, at the company’s annual holiday party? I would beg you not to. A man can get away with it. A woman can’t. It’s not fair, but that’s how it is. Mind your alcohol. Mind your manners.

5. Pick your battles. Be reasonable. Think big picture.

6. Be kind. I think women confuse this with being seen as soft or not tough enough. I disagree. In fact, kindness can be disarming. A smile, a compliment, a question as to the health of a co-worker’s spouse. These are often unexpected, but mostly appreciated and remembered. As long as you can back it up with competency, you’re good.

7. Support the sisterhood. Nothing is so disturbing as a woman stepping over another for her own gain. Come on, girls. We have to have each other’s backs.

8. Mind your tongue. That is, don’t gossip. It erodes trust. It’s catty. It’s rude. You know the rule. If you can’t say something nice . . . 

9. Sleep on it. Avoid the rash decision. A night of sleep will do wonders for clarity in thinking, allowing for an unemotional, objective look at your choices. Having said this, sometimes, an instant decision is required. An engine fails in your aircraft and you have to react now. In cases like this, I refer to point number one. If you’re competent—trained, prepared—you’ll make the correct decision. However, most of the time, you have some breathing room, so use it.

10. Above all else, the Golden Rule. Treat others as you would have them treat you.

Women Who Inspire: Interview with Adrienne (Hegman) Brandicourt

Next up in the Women Who Inspire series, Adrienne Brandicourt! Adrienne is one of my Naval Academy classmates who flies in the stratosphere academically, but at the same time, is as down to earth and sweet as you please. . . .

Adrienne (Hegman) Brandicourt graduated with a Bachelor of Science in Computer Science and a minor in German. She reported to Headquarters US European Command (EUCOM) Data Services Center (J6) in Stuttgart, Germany, where she did computer systems design for the EUCOM Intelligence Support System development branch. Following her service in Germany, she reported to Naval Ocean Processing Facility, in Dam Neck, VA, where she served as SURTASS (Surveillance Towed Array Sensor System) watch officer, legal officer, and admin officer. Adrienne lives with her husband, Harry (also USNA class of 89) in Cincinnati, Ohio. She has four children—Benjamin, Annie, Isabelle, and Elliott.

AW: There are so many things I want to ask you, but I’ll start with the basics. Why the Naval Academy?

AB: My parents took us to Washington, D.C., when I was around twelve or thirteen, and we also visited the Academy on that trip. I absolutely fell in love with it. I liked the water, the sailboats, the YP’s, and the Yard.

AW: What did your parents think about your decision?

AB: My parents were thrilled when I told them I wanted to go the Naval Academy. But many other people thought differently, and I often heard, “You can’t do that.” “Why do you want to do that?” “You’re not an athlete.” At that point in time, many people I knew questioned the role of women in the military. I suppose that pushed me to want to do it even more, but really, it came down to the fact that I just loved the Academy. I had applied to four other schools, but the Academy was my first choice all the way through.

AW: Did you have any idea what you wanted to do in the navy before you got to the Naval Academy?

AB: I thought I wanted to be on a ship. Of course, at eighteen, I didn’t really know what that meant. But I was game for it. I thought it was fantastic to know I was going to go to school for four years and then I’d have a job waiting for me right afterwards.

AW: When did that idea change, do you think? About pursuing surface warfare after graduation?

AB: It changed first class year, when I studied abroad in Germany. I did a semester at the German Military University [Bundeswehr Universität] in Munich, and it was an amazing experience. So on service selection night, there was a billet available for computer systems design, which was my major, and the job was located in Germany. I really wanted to go back, so I took it.

AW: I never knew you studied abroad! What an amazing opportunity! So what was this like? Was the university comparable to the Naval Academy? Do they have service academies like we do? Did you have to do everything in German?

AB: Yes, everything was in German. And the idea of service academies is the same, but it’s executed differently in Germany. They have two military universities—one in Hamburg and one in Munich—and all five branches (army, navy, air force, support and medical) of the Germany military are represented at each place. It was a lot more relaxed than the Naval Academy was. We wore civilian clothes most of the semester. I think they wore uniforms maybe twice a year.

AW: No uniforms? I can’t even imagine! When you had to wear a uniform, what did you wear?

AB: Well, this is an interesting story. We had just one formation while I was there. It included marching to a given location, listening to a speech and marching back. And at the time, there were no women in the German military—

AW: Wait, wait, wait. Come back. There were no women in the German military?

AB: Not at the time, no. But I think, ultimately, this was one of the reasons I was able to study abroad here. No one had ever done it before, but because I was a woman, it worked out. The Germans were trying to figure out how to integrate women into their military, and this would be a temporary, very small, trial project, which wouldn’t attract loads of attention.

AW: So you were the only woman there?

AB: I was—in the classrooms, that is. But we had women all around, because the guys’ girlfriends were able to visit whenever they wanted, and in many cases, lived there with them.

AW: Seriously? Their girlfriends could live with them? That’s quite a bit different from the deal we have over here.

AB: Yeah, no kidding. It was like going to a regular university. It was open. No curfew. The dorms were beautiful and you got a huge room to yourself—

AW: A room to yourself? Seriously? I can’t even. . . .

AB: [Laughs] I know! There were about sixteen rooms to a building and they all centered around a big kitchen and living area. Oh, and there weren’t women’s bathrooms or showers. Everyone shared and it wasn’t a big deal at all.

AW: Wow. So different. How were you treated, then? And how many men attended at the time you were there, do you think?

AB: It was pretty small. I think there was a student population of about 2,500. I got along well with everyone—you have to remember I was grouped in classes with nerdy computer science people—who were all really, really nice. And—you’ll love this—my German computer science buddies all loved to swim! I always thought of you—yes, you—when I was there, because we’d go to the pool in the evenings and swim and swim and swim!

AW: Okay, so that’s excellent. Any other memories that stand out from that time?

AB: One thing that was really cool was that I got to work on a research project called PROMETHEUS, which at the time, was the largest research and development project ever in the field of driverless cars. I worked on it with my research adviser, a professor at the school, named Ernst Dickmanns. At the time, I didn’t realize how lucky I was to be working with him, as he was a pioneer of driverless cars in the 1980s.

AW: Wow. So cool. But before I go off on another tangent, I want to go back to the story you were going to tell me earlier about the uniform and marching to formation.

AB: Oh, yes. We had an O-3 [the equivalent of an army captain] in charge of my military exchange program. I showed up for the march to formation in my SDBs [Service Dress Blue], and I wore pants, because we were going to be marching. The O-3 said no, absolutely not. They were not going to have me in pants. They wanted everyone to know they had a female exchange student, so I needed to wear a skirt and heels. I argued and eventually, we compromised. Yes, I would wear the skirt, but not the heels. First of all, you don’t march in a skirt, but no way do you do it in heels!

AW: I’m glad you stood your ground on that one! So let me skip back to where this whole conversation about Germany started—to your service selection to EUCOM in Stuttgart. What was your job and how did you find your experience there as a whole?

AB: EUCOM was a joint command—army, navy, air force, marine corps—and a high ranking command. There were plenty of women filling various roles, but not many junior officers, male or female. I was lucky to speak German, and was able to keep in touch with my friends from the Bundeswehr Universität in Munich. I worked with a team of Air Force personnel designing the collections management portion of a new computer system for the Intelligence Directorate.

AW: Were the systems you designed in operation by the time you left?

AB: Actually, the technology was changing so fast, that it was probably out of date as we were working on it. As we were writing code, we were constantly considering switching to other platforms and/or languages. They were still working on it when I left, and I don’t know when they went operational.

AW: Let’s see . . . . Switching gears completely. You married one of our classmates, Harry Brandicourt. Did you meet in school? And when did you start dating?

AB: We met the summer of youngster cruise, but didn’t really start dating until we were in Germany. Although, actually, I guess we were dating by service selection night, because he selected nuc surface [Surface Warfare Officer (nuclear)], but arranged TAD orders in Germany first before beginning his training, so he could be near me. After he returned to the states, we dated long distance. We got married when I had about six months left in that tour.

AW: And were you able to get co-located after that?

AB: Yes. We were able to arrange it so that we were both in Virginia Beach. This was definitely a compromise for both of us, because career-wise, what we each really wanted was in California. But it would have meant one of us living in Los Angeles and the other in San Diego. It just wasn’t worth it to us to live that far apart, even though technically, it would be considered co-location. Ultimately, I’m so happy I prioritized us being together over the job.

AW: Even though it wasn’t your first choice in jobs, your next assignment does sound interesting. Where did you work and what did this involve?

AB: I was at the Naval Ocean Processing Facility Dam Neck, VA, and it was an IUSS [Integrated Underseas Surveillance System] Command, with both SOSUS [Sound Surveillance System ] and SURTASS [Surveillance Towed Array Sensor System ] watch floors and facilities.

AW: Looking for submarines, then.

AB: Yes. We would receive, read, and interpret data and brief the commanding officer at least once per day. Plus, we’d coordinate with the SURTASS ships to put their arrays in the best possible location to identify and track a given submarine.

AW: I know we just scratched the surface of what you did in the navy, but I’ll try to wrap up the interview this way. You have four kids now. Have any of them entertained the idea of going to the Naval Academy?

AB: My two oldest? Definitely not. One wants to be a high school teacher, and the other, a social worker. The third said, “If nobody in this house is going to make money, I had better!”

AW: That is hilarious!

AB:  My youngest, though, occasionally talks about going to the Naval Academy. We’ll just have to see. It’s tough at only eighteen to know what you want to do. You think you know what you want to do, but you may or may not. I tell my kids that it’s cool to have an idea what to do, but it’s also good to realize it could change. And that’s totally okay.

AW: If you had to do it all over again—going to the Naval Academy—would you?

AB: I would absolutely do it again. I thought the school experience was wonderful. I learned so much I wouldn’t have learned anywhere else. All of my company-mates were great. People ask me now if it was difficult, and I say, no, it was fantastic. I grew up a lot faster than I think I would have otherwise, which I appreciate. It taught me a lot about determination and fortitude, and also how to do things I wasn’t good at. That was a hard lesson, but a good one. So yes. I’d definitely do it all again.

Women Who Inspire: Interview with Cathy (Donohue) Phillips

Cathy (Donohue) Phillips graduated with a Bachelor of Science in Political Science from the US Naval Academy.  After completing flight training, she was designated a Naval Flight Officer, and reported to Fleet Air Reconnaissance Squadron TWO (VQ-2) in Rota, Spain, where she earned her qualification as an EP-3 Electronic Warfare Mission Commander. Subsequently, she became the first woman to command an EP-3 squadron—Fleet Air Reconnaissance Squadron ONE (VQ-1). During her twenty-five year career, Cathy also served in the Office of Legislative Affairs in Washington, D. C., while concurrently serving as a White House Military Social Aide. She completed US Naval Test Pilot School in Patuxent River, MD, and upon graduation, served as a project officer at Naval Force Aircraft Test Squadron. She has logged over 3,000 flight hours in 23 types of aircraft. In addition, she served at the US Naval Academy, the Office of the Secretary of Defense, and the Defense Information Systems Agency. Cathy retired from naval service in November 2014 with the rank of Captain (O-6).  

AW: Cathy, your resume is sort of out of control. When you graduated from the Naval Academy, did you have any idea that you would be taking this path?

CP: No. None at all. It happened tour by tour. After each tour, I’d say, okay, I’m done. Then they’d offer me the job for the next tour, and I’d think, well, that sounds interesting.

AW: You served as a Naval Flight Officer (NFO) in an EP-3 squadron, VQ-2, in Rota, Spain, as your first tour of duty after flight school. Were there many women in your command?

CP: We had around five hundred people in our command—these are large squadrons—and probably seventy to eighty officers in the wardroom. Of those, maybe four or five were women. Reconnaissance had recently opened up to women when we were in flight school—a stair step leading to women flying  combat aircraft.

AW: And how about on the aircraft itself, when you’d go on missions? What was the crew composition there?

CP: We had twenty-four people on the plane.  We’d carry three pilots, three NFOs, and 18 technical crewmembers. We needed so many people because of the signals intelligence work we did.

AW: Describe this just a bit. What kind of missions did you do and how long were they?

CP: We did a wide variety of missions. We flew a lot in support of Bosnia and Herzegovina doing combat reconnaissance missions. My longest flight was 11.6 hours. We did a lot of looking at battle space, gathered information, we’d talk with entities on the ground, on ships, and on other aircraft, providing real-time situational awareness. We’d never fly above 26,000 feet. I called us big, fat, slow, and ugly!

AW: Ha! And were you flying from Rota or were you forward deployed?

CP: We forward deployed to Souda Bay in Crete. I probably spent almost two years in Crete.

AW: Two years in Greece . . . Are you kidding?

CP: That was a great tour.

AW: No doubt! So on your flights, were you ever the only woman onboard?

CP: Oh, many times.

AW: Any difficulties in this regard?

CP: No. I didn’t really have any issues on my JO [Junior Officer] tour. The only small thing was that we’d always send someone out to the carrier to act as a liaison with the EP-3. I was in the rotation to go to the carrier, but they said they wouldn’t take me aboard, because it was too hard for them to figure out the berthing. [At this time, before 1994, women were prohibited from serving aboard combatant ships]. But that was really it. What I found out later in my career is that there were a few guys who didn’t have trouble working with women, but had trouble working for women, but overall, no big issues.

AW: Which you would know about, since, for example, you were the first woman to command an EP-3 squadron. Which is really amazing when you think about it. When you first started flight school, they had just opened reconnaissance up to women and then—what, seventeen years, eighteen years?—later, you’re taking command of a reconnaissance squadron!

CP: Yeah, everything really opened up for us. Sara [Joyner] was the first female CO [commanding officer] for Hornets. Heidi Fleming took command of a squadron . . .

    

AW: What about ’89, indeed! Now, because you had the unique opportunity to command a squadron, I’m curious how you perceived your female junior officers when you were a CO. Do you see a difference in the female junior officer now as opposed to twenty-five years ago?

CP: I think everything has changed a great deal. The women who were my junior officers when I was a CO were just toddlers when we attended the Naval Academy.

AW: Yikes! How’s that for feeling old?

CP: I know! [laughs]. As you know, our “generation” of officers moved into the fleet just a few years before combatants were opened up to women. It seems, as a whole, we waited later to marry and have kids, if we married or had kids at all. My son was only two years old when I entered my XO [executive officer] and CO tour. What I see now is that the female junior officers are marrying and having children sooner. They’re just having to finesse things differently than we did.

AW: Because you mention your son, I’d like to backtrack to find out about your husband. Where did you meet him and was he in the service, too?

CP: We met in Pax River [Patuxent River, Maryland]. He was a P-3 pilot.

AW: When did you get married and how did that work in terms of co-location?

CP: We dated—long distance—for the first year of my department head tour in Rota, Spain, and then were engaged for the second year. We got married just a few months before I rotated out. I then received orders to the Naval Academy and my husband retired from the service during that tour. This worked out perfectly, because when I eventually took orders to VQ-1 for my XO and CO tour, [Whidbey Island, Washington], he was able to move with me and our son out there and work as a contractor for Homeland Security.

    

AW: How was your command tour?

CP: A hard tour. A good tour. So much to juggle. We had around 500 people operating all over the world. We didn’t deploy as a squadron, but would send detachments out. So we’d send the JOs out with their plane for two months and we had planes all over the world.  We supported Operation IRAQI FREEDOM. We had crews in South America. We had them in Japan for Operation ENDURING FREEDOM. Over the course of that year, when I was CO, I took eight or nine trips around the world to spend time with each detachment. Lots of travel. Lots of time away. Our son was between two and four years old at the time, so that was hard.  But my husband spent a lot of time at home with him and developed a great and very sweet relationship with him. At the end of my CO tour, we were exhausted.

AW: I realize I’m skipping around here, but I want to go back to the tour prior to Test Pilot School, where you were performing two jobs concurrently. You worked in the Office of Legislative Affairs in Washington, D. C. , working as a liaison officer between the House of Representatives and the navy. And at the same time you served as a White House Military Social Aide. I’m curious about the White House job. What was that?

CP: This was a collateral duty that you had to apply and be selected for. There were five or six of us—junior officers from all branches of service—and basically, you were there to help the President and his family host state dinners and receptions.

AW: How cool is that? So what did this entail?

CP: We would have different assignments depending on the dinner. Like one of us might be at the door to greet guests and welcome them to the White House. Or one of us might escort guests upstairs. We met all sorts of people, movie stars, really interesting people.

AW: And were you dressed up? In uniform?

CP: We wore mess dress [a formal uniform in the navy]. And we would also do receiving line duty. And this was actually a highly orchestrated event.

AW: You mean, directing people to the receiving line?

CP: No, more than that. We had several people assigned to the receiving line, all with specific jobs. We had the Announcer, the Pre-Announcer,  the Whisperer—

AW: The Whisperer?

CP: The person who stood behind the President and whispered in his ear about who was coming next in the receiving line. The Whisperer received his information from the Announcers.

AW: Were you ever the Whisperer?

CP: I never got to be the Whisperer.

AW: Anything else we need to know about the inner workings of the receiving line?

CP: We had Pull-off people, too.

AW: Pull-off people? I hesitate to ask. . . .

CP:  Yeah. Pull-off One and Pull-off Two. To keep the receiving line moving, we would have people assigned to “pull” the person talking to the President or another dignitary in order to keep the line moving. “Now, right this way, sir.” Stuff like that.

AW: I had no idea.

CP: You just can’t believe how smoothly everything is run. There’s a civilian protocol officer that orchestrates everything. And I mean everything.

AW: So you enjoyed this job?

CP: Yes, it was a lot of fun. I got to see how the White House runs. But I have to say, no matter who I vote for, I have a ton of respect for whoever sits in the President’s chair and also the President’s family. I mean, I only saw the social part, and that was just crazy.

AW: And then, from White House Military Social Aide to U. S. Naval Test Pilot School. What a crazy swing! Did you have to apply for that and how did it work once you were in?

CP: Yes, you had to apply and there was a selection board. Once you were in, you took one of three tracks: jet, helo, or systems. I took the systems track and when I finished [after graduation from Test Pilot School one year later], I did two years of testing on EP-3 systems.

AW: Your resume says you flew twenty-three different types of aircraft. Did you do all this in Test Pilot School?

CP: Yes. They want you to have an “air sense” about as many aircraft as possible to help round your perspective. I got to fly a wide variety of aircraft like the F-14, F-15, the Beaver—a tail dragger prop—and I got to fly in Italy with the Tornado at the end for my DT2—it’s similar to a final thesis.

   

AW: Your thesis?

CP: Yes, at Test Pilot School it was like getting an aero engineering masters and you have this project at the end that encompasses everything you learned that year.

AW: That is just so flippin’ impressive. With all of these tours—and we didn’t even get to each one of them—did you have a favorite?

CP: I loved each one in different ways . . . which is why I kept staying in. 

Women Who Inspire: Interview with Hope Hall

For those of you new to my blog, I periodically interview my female Naval Academy classmates and post these interviews under the heading, Women Who Inspire. I favor a strong female protagonist, and I don't have to look far for inspiration.

One such person is this month's interviewee, Hope Hall. Prepare to be amazed. I've even included a bonus video at the end of the article. Your jaw will drop when you watch it, but it will remain firmly cemented to the floor when you remember that Hope is forty-seven years old. 

Hope Hall on the straps.

Hope Hall graduated from the United States Naval Academy with a Bachelor of Science in English and reported to Helicopter Anti-Submarine Squadron Light-40 (HSL-40) in Mayport, Florida, to serve as the legal officer, and later, the maintenance officer. After attending Intel School in Dam Neck, VA, she reported to Joint Intelligence Center Pacific (JICPAC) in Hawaii to serve as an all-source intelligence officer. Her final tour, rounding out seven years of active duty service, brought her back to Washington, D. C., as the navy’s HIV policy officer. She represented Team USA in the World Military Games in the sports of triathlon and cross country, and has competed five times at the Ironman Triathlon World Championships in Kona, Hawaii. Today, she works as a Senior Project Manager for Clark Construction. Hope is currently living in Seattle, WA. 


AW: I typically don’t begin these interviews by talking about outside interests or hobbies, but I just have to start with this first photo, because it’s so freakin’ gorgeous. Tell me about aerial arts and performing with the straps. When and where did you begin this pursuit?

HH: I started at a circus arts school in Los Angeles about seven years ago. I saw a man performing on the straps—typically it’s men on this apparatus—and he did these roll-ups, where you start in an iron cross position and roll yourself up the straps, and I said, “I want to do this!”

Hope Hall on straps
and Steve Thompson on trapeze

AW: You were a gymnast at the Naval Academy, so I imagine this background helped!

HH: Yeah, so much of that muscle memory was still there. I’ve always been challenged with flexibility, but my strength is my strength, so this apparatus plays to that. It requires great core strength, but it’s still beautiful and lyrical. This is a great outlet for my creativity and also a viable form of exercise. I can work on my strength and flexibility, stay in shape, and I get to perform, too.

AW: Tell me about this picture here, where you are performing with a trapeze artist.

HH: This was one of my favorite performances. You wouldn’t think the trapeze and the straps could mesh, but we created a story—a love story—did the choreography, picked the costumes, and the music. It’s all a learning process. When you’re creating the story, you’re thinking, How do I want to make people feel? Normally, I do performances with a “stronger” feel, but this one was quite gentle.
 
AW: These photos are just stunning. But you also do partner balance work.

Hope Hall with Rachel Tatum
demonstrating partner balance

HH: When trying out different things at the circus arts school, you find what works for your body type, and partner balancing works well for me. The partner I work with now is also a former gymnast. Like the straps, partner balancing plays to my strength.

AW: Speaking of strength, you’re an accomplished triathlete. You’ve completed thirteen Ironman triathlons and you’ve qualified for and competed in the Ironman World Championships in Kona, Hawaii, five times! We could probably spend your entire interview right here—since your interviewer is a triathlon coach—but suffice it to say, this is an amazing accomplishment. How did you get started in triathlon?

HH: When I was stationed in Hawaii, I won a bet with a fellow Academy grad who was a swimmer at Annapolis. For winning, he had to give me swim lessons, so I could survive my first sprint triathlon.

AW: Survive? You mean you couldn’t swim?

HH: No! I was an aqua-rock at the Academy. I barely made it through the swim tests there.

AW: From aqua-rock to Kona. Incredible. And trust me, as a swim coach, I know. So from the time you completed your first sprint tri to going to Kona, how long was that?

HH: I learned to swim and started racing in 1992. I went to Kona for the first time in 1995. So three years.

AW: And what other years did you compete there and did you have a favorite qualifying race?

HH: After the first time in 1995, I was there in 1996 and 1998. Then I took a little break from Ironman, but returned the sport in 2005 at Ironman Lake Placid and qualified there. That was my favorite qualifying race. And then I did Ironman Wisconsin in 2006, which qualifies you for Kona in the following year, so I did my last Kona in 2007.

AW: Are you doing triathlons now?

HH: Yes, but not like before. I think that triathlon . . . it can sort of take over your life. I wanted to take some time off. I wanted it to be fun again. Now, my favorite thing is doing relays with my sister—she’s a super-fast cyclist—so now it’s fun again. But also, triathlon doesn’t mix well with the aerial arts and partner balancing. They run counter to each other. Like if you’re running, your hamstrings get tight, or you’re bent over on a bike in the aero position, but then you have to go to the gym and you’re doing back handsprings. It’s just hard, especially as you get older.

Hope Hall (right) with her sisters,
Kate Borders (left) and Lindsey Mohle (center)

AW: [Easy to forget you’re speaking with a 47-year-old, when the conversation shifts to back handsprings. I take that back. I forgot she was 47 with the very first question and pretty much every question since.] So we need to hit on your naval career at some point in this interview, but even this included athletics, because you competed for Team USA in the World Military Games, both in the sports of triathlon and cross country!

HH: Yes, the first Games were in Rome in 1995 and it was pretty cool because you marched into a stadium, just like the Olympics, and there were probably thirty countries there. The whole idea of the military games is friendship through sport, so you had countries participating that weren’t friendly with the United States—like the Libyan military showed up—but we competed together on the field, so that was neat.

AW: Did they have the same sports in these Games that you’d find in the Olympics?

HH: They did, but they also focused on sports that showcased military skills. Like they had military pentathlon, which involved horses, and also sports with marksmanship. Remember Thomas Hellriegel? He was a German army officer and I got to be friends with him. He won the triathlon event for the Military Games that year, and then a month later, he took second place in Kona. That was my first Kona year, too, and I remember sitting with him the day after the race and he was absolutely stunned that he’d done that well. He was a total unknown at the time.

AW: That’s a very nice piece of triathlon lore there! Ok, so we really need to get to your military stuff. First, how would you characterize your time at the Naval Academy?

HH:  It took a while for me to look back on it fondly. After graduation, I stayed away. There were elements that were challenging. I knew I was gay, and I watched this girl, one of our classmates, go through this horrible thing. She was the smartest woman I’ve ever met and they kicked her out. I always lived in fear that I was next, so it was really hard. I pushed the Academy stuff away until our twentieth reunion. I went and it was a turning point. Everyone was so warm and they all knew about me and nobody cared. It was so refreshing to have this reaction after twenty years. I felt welcome again, but it wasn’t like that when I graduated.

AW: I’m an author and I should have the words for that, but it sickens me. That whole situation. That you lived in fear like that. I’m just glad you’re being treated better now.

HH: Yeah, I’ve reconnected with people. Thank heavens for Facebook! I’m even going to the Army-Navy game this weekend. So it’s much better, yes.

Hope Hall and her mom, Dina Hall in Italy

AW: You service selected General Unrestricted Line, and after you graduated, you went to a helicopter squadron first.

HH: I did. I was the legal officer for HSL-40 [Helicopter Anti-Submarine Squadron Light] and then I eventually moved into the maintenance department and became the maintenance officer.

AW: Were you mostly shore-based or did you go to sea during this tour?

HH: I was shore-based. This was a training squadron, so pilots fresh out of flight school would come here to learn how to fly the H-60. We had a lot of senior pilots in the squadron, who were instructors, and I got to go flying, too.

AW: And after this, you went to Hawaii for intelligence work? What did you do there?

HH: I was assigned to JICPAC [Joint Intelligence Center Pacific] as an all-source intelligence officer. This was a cool tour because it was joint, so all the services were represented here. Everyone had a different area of responsibility and we would brief the admirals and generals at Camp Smith every morning on developments or things that might be of interest to them in our area.

AW: And what was your area?

HH: I covered South Asia. Every night, you’d cull through all this information and pull up anything that could be of importance. Like there could have been a revolution in Fiji and you’d have to report on that. Or maybe you’d find something interesting in satellite imagery or pick up a good piece of human intelligence.

AW: Fascinating. I’ve sort of zipped around chronologically during this interview, and I’m going to fast forward once more. Today, you’re a Senior Project Manager for a construction company. Tell me about your most recently completed job.

HH: We just completed the structural retrofit of the Hall of Justice in downtown Los Angeles. After the Northridge earthquake in 1994, the building was shut down. It sat idle for almost twenty years. I mean, homeless people lived there. So we did a complete retrofit to make it earthquake tolerant. It took three years and 175 million dollars to bring it back to life, and the result is stunning.

AW: And now, you’ve moved to Seattle to take on the management of a new project.

HH: Yes, this is another three-year job. We’re expanding a VA facility to include a mental health center for research and outpatient care.

AW: I’m going to wrap up the interview by returning to the beginning of your naval career, to the application process for obtaining an appointment to the Naval Academy. I think our readers are going to get a chuckle out of who gave you your congressional nomination.

HH: Ha! It was Strom Thurmond. I’ll never forget when I received that phone call—I spoke with him personally—and he told me he was giving me a nomination. Probably rolling in his grave right now!

AW: Rolling over to applaud, hopefully!


Here's a video of Hope practicing on the straps!

Women Who Inspire: Interview with Cathy Masar

This month's interview is with a very recently retired navy captain, Cathy Masar. Join the navy, see the world! She's done that and then some.

Commander Cathy Masar - Change of Command, Boston
Military Entrance Processing Station, 2011

Cathy Masar graduated from the U. S. Naval Academy with a Bachelor of Science in Economics. During her 25-year career, she served in a wide variety of positions including Training Officer aboard USS Abraham Lincoln, Flag Lieutenant for the Sixth Fleet Commander, Facilitator and Instructor at the Defense Equal Opportunity Management Institute, Commanding Officer of the Boston Military Entrance Processing Station, and Executive Director, Total Force Management for the U. S. Pacific Fleet. Cathy retired with the rank of Captain (O-6) and currently works at Amazon as a Senior Human Resources Business Partner. Cathy lives in Seattle, WA.
  
AW: You just retired after twenty-five years of active duty service as a navy captain. You’ve served all over the world, ashore and at sea, but it all started back in Orofino, Idaho! What led you to choose the Naval Academy?

CM: It was several things. I have three very smart older sisters, who were in college at the time, and it would have been difficult financially for my family to support four daughters in school at the same time. I also wanted to serve, to travel, to see the world, and to be challenged. And my dad was a captain in the navy reserve and served on active duty in Vietnam aboard a hospital ship.

AW: How would you characterize your time at the Naval Academy?

CM: It was hard—the first two years, especially. I struggled with time management. With all the stuff we had to do there—all those extracurricular activities—I was overwhelmed. But I did have help from a Class of ’88 grad, who helped me prioritize and get myself going. I learned to focus.

AW: Any bright spots?

USNA Economics majors visit the New York
Stock Exchange, 1989
L to R, Cathy Masar, Eric Cheney, Heather Purvis

CM: Oh, definitely. I loved Halloween at Navy. We got to dress up. No one was mean to each other. It was all fun. To this day, Halloween is my favorite holiday! My roommates were another bright spot, as we went through such a challenging experience together. And Father Pucciarelli [a marine corps chaplain stationed at USNA when we were there]. Remember him? I went to him for advice when I was having trouble and he pointed to my shoes and said I needed to shine my shoes. I thought, what does that have to do with anything? But then he went on to say that I needed to start with the small things, things that I could control, forget about the other stuff, and I would feel better about myself. He was right.

AW: You served as a General Unrestricted Line Officer and, reading through your bio, you did some really cool stuff—and a wide variety, at that. What was your favorite tour?

CM: My most professionally rewarding tour was aboard [the aircraft carrier], Abraham Lincoln. I served as the Training Officer, but I also qualified as Officer of the Deck, which means, I was qualified to drive the ship. So there I was, driving an aircraft carrier, with planes taking off and landing, and I was a human resources specialist! Crazy! I also earned my Surface Warfare qualification, while assigned there.

AW: Okay, so that’s cool as hell, I just want to say. In charge on the bridge on an aircraft carrier! So you were on the Lincoln in 2001. This was seven years after the ban was lifted for women serving aboard combatant ships. What was the atmosphere like onboard?

CM: I would say it was the tour that hardened me the most. Up to this point, I had done a lot of shore tours and staff tours and working with admirals, so I was used to a little more politeness. But on the ship, it was a lot more crude. You know, the foul language, sailors getting arrested for drug and alcohol related offenses. Just a very different world.

AW: Were there many women on the ship?

Cathy Masar, kindergarten.
This little girl would
grow up to drive an
aircraft carrier.

CW: I don’t remember how many, exactly. But I do remember that fifty percent of the Reactor Department officers were women. These were nuclear surface warfare officers, which is a tough job for anyone—a huge job on a carrier—and these girls were sharp. So heartening to see what they were doing.

AW: Going back to working with admirals, you served as the Flag Lieutenant for the Sixth Fleet Commander, based in Gaeta, Italy.

CM: I did. I served as the Protocol Officer and the Flag Lieutenant for Sixth Fleet for two years and before that, I was in Naples, Italy and served as Protocol Officer and Flag Secretary for the Commander, Fleet Air Mediterranean.

AW: Four years in Italy! Sweet!

CM: You asked about my favorite tour earlier and I said my time on the Abraham Lincoln was the most professionally rewarding. But my favorite place was Italy. And the tours here allowed me to travel all over Europe.

AW: Were you stationed on a ship there?

CM: The command ship for the Sixth Fleet Commander was the USS La Salle, a converted amphibious ship. So yes, I had berthing there, but I also had a place in Formia, which was incredibly beautiful—glass walls, statues—wonderful.
  
AW: Did you get underway much?

CM: At least once a month, we would cruise into the Adriatic Sea, and then the Med, of course. I visited Casablanca, Israel, Greece, Algeria, Turkey. . . . We flew into Monaco.. . . I even got to accompany the admiral to Macedonia. Just an amazing opportunity.

AW: I’d say! And what was that like, working with admirals?

CM: It was extremely interesting, because I worked so closely with them. It sort of de-mystified them. I learned how they worked, how they allotted their time. They were managing so much and I got to see how they pulled it all together.

AW: I could for sure get stalled here and spend the rest of the time talking about Italy, but I wanted to touch on your time—earlier in your career—at the Defense Equal Opportunity Management Institute (DEOMI). You were stationed at Patrick Air Force Base for this?

CM: I was. This was in Cocoa Beach, Florida, and this tour was an absolute life changer for me. Prior to this, I had actually put in my resignation letter. This was only five years into my naval career. I was at the Recruit Training Command in Orlando and the base was being shut down, and I was getting a divorce, and I just didn’t have a plan. Someone mentioned an opportunity at DEOMI and wondered if I might be interested. I called my detailer and she said I could go there, so I pulled my resignation papers.

AW: I had no idea you’d submitted resignation papers at one point! So what did you do here?

CM: This command included all pay grades and all services and we had an intense four-month training period, where we received sensitized training on race relations, gender relations, and managing diversity. It was the one place in my whole career where sexist or racist comments were not tolerated- or even joked about. I mean, we were role models, so everyone respected each other and knew that the standard had to be high.

AW: As part of your job, you had to travel worldwide to instruct senior military leaders on diversity issues and the prevention of sexual harassment and racial discrimination. How were you received?

CM: Well . . . some groups were kind to us—we were assigned to mobile training teams—but some were hostile, too. But overall, I learned a great deal. How to get up in front of people, how do deliver unpopular training, and I learned valuable facilitation skills. That tour re-motivated and kick-started my career. I thought, after this, I’m ready to do anything.

AW: Any specific examples of a “hostile” crowd?

CM: I was surprised when we traveled to South Africa. This was just after the end of apartheid and I thought race relations would be the focus of our training. But we had a much harder time with women’s issues. That’s where we found the biases. Due to apartheid, they had already been addressing race issues, but not gender issues.

Captain Cathy Masar - Retirement Ceremony, Hawaii, 2014

AW: So interesting! Okay, so let’s fast forward to your last command, when you worked for the U. S. Pacific Fleet. You carried enormous responsibility here.

CM: Yes, I worked as N1 [Executive Director, Total Force Management], a job normally filled by a civilian, who is a flag officer equivalent. The woman in this position left, and I was asked to fill in for her, however, I stayed in this position for a full eighteen months!

AW: “Filling in” for  eighteen months. Classic. So what did this job entail and where were you stationed?

CM: I was in Hawaii for this tour and responsible for the manning of all ships in the Pacific Fleet and the human resources functions for over 130,000 military and civilian.

AW: That’s a big job by anyone’s standards!

CM: Definitely. But I had a great staff. Great support.

AW: And you retired from the navy after this?

CM: I did. Time to get back to family. And the timing was just right. I was ready.

AW: You work at Amazon now. How have you found the transition from military to civilian life?

CM: I had no idea what to expect and no time to prepare. I was so busy in my last job that when I retired, I was just suddenly out there. I networked through Linked In and that really helped, but job searching was a humbling experience.

AW: So you’ve been at Amazon how long now?

CM: Only a month. In fact, I haven’t had to work on the Friday after Thanksgiving in a long time (the military usually gives that day off), but I was working at Amazon yesterday, on Black Friday.

AW: Ha! Black Friday. At Amazon. Nothing like being thrown into the fire! So I guess your navy experience served you well here.

CM: It certainly did!